Listen up! A Dash of SALT podcast Episode One
How do human and labor rights fit into efforts that track our seafood?
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TRANSCRIPT
(music intro)
AMY
Hello, I’m Amy West with the Seafood Alliance for Legality and Traceability– SALT– and this is a dash of SALT. I’m here with Jen Cole, Senior Project Director at FishWise who specializes in socially responsible seafood, particularly the fishing that’s further off the coast. As the world learns about social distancing, which we are practicing today, we want to hone in on another definition of social responsibility. How does traceability— tracking your seafood from harvest to its final destination— also benefit the social aspect of fisheries, or the human and labor side of things?
Hi, Jen, welcome to our inaugural episode.
JEN
Thanks for having me.
AMY
Sure. Since it’s a “dash” of SALT, we’ll jump right in with defining traceability. It’s a broad term. So today are we talking about the concept of traceability—the data traveling along a fish’s entire journey from being caught to eating it? Are we referring to the tools developed to trace our seafood?
JEN
One, you would think that’s a softball question, but because traceability is so complex, it actually isn’t. And when I think about traceability, especially in the context of seafood, I really think about our ability to track every point in a fish’s journey from when it’s caught to when it’s on your plate, and you’re about to consume it. And really, that ability to track the fish also is beneficial for collecting data that happens along each point in that fish’s journey. And that data can tell you more about that fish that you’re tracking. So maybe where it’s from, the species, if it’s associated with any risks. You have to do quite a bit of supply chain mapping in order to, you know, understand those different points in the fish’s journey. And right now COVID-19 supply chain disruptions are going on everywhere. A lot of the buyers and suppliers are having to shift the way that they’re sourcing products. All that’s to say that right now is a time when supply chain mapping and traceability for your products is even more important. And we’re really seeing, you know, the weak points of not having it.
AMY
Yes, we are for those of us looking for toilet paper still. So, when SALT uses the term comprehensive traceability, we’re actually saying a traceability system where the data can benefit others, namely social responsibility groups. Can you talk about how traceability can support social responsibility?
JEN
Yeah, so when I think about using traceability in order to kind of progress social responsibility goals or worker welfare, I kind of see there being two kinds of crucial approaches to doing that. And so the first one is more of a risk mitigation approach. So basically saying, you know, what types of practices along the supply chain might correspond to a higher risk for human rights abuses or other practices that just aren’t great for workers along the supply chain. So I think one good example of that is the practice of at-sea transshipment. So at-sea transshipment facilitates vessels not coming into port for, you know, sometimes over a year at a time. That inability to go to port is associated with workers not necessarily having the resources to, you know, reach out if there are any violations happening on the vessel. And so I think, practices like that, where there’s a risk that overlaps with social responsibility, and also maybe illegal fishing, or a lack of environmental sustainability is one way that this comprehensive traceability approach can benefit social responsibility.
I would say the other way, and this way, is not quite as developed as this risk-based approach is the ability to use traceability or tools associated with traceability to document actual conditions on vessels. And so that would include things like video monitoring, so electronic video monitoring on vessels that show working hours, if there’s harassment happening, you know, potentially whether people have access to documents, and that’s an area where I think there needs to be quite a bit of work to get to a place where the current electronic monitoring can actually demonstrate that in a really responsible way, and to actually see through to those like social responsibility benefits.
And that’s why traceability is important because this product level traceability allows us to understand this entire web of people and the traceability of people connected to our supply chains.
AMY
What are some of those obstacles that groups would face if they want to include human data with fisheries data? I mean, how different is tracing people versus fish?
JEN
Quite different because you know, humans have rights that fish don’t have and humans are active stakeholders in ways that fish can’t be. So I would say if a group wants to include human data or start to work on actual documentation of human rights abuses, like I was talking about for onboard video monitoring, you know, that group would really have to be able to engage with humans, so likely fishers or captains or crew and get their buy in. Because ideally, human data being collected should not only do no harm to the humans, but also actively improve their conditions that the workers care about. So I think it’s really important to be actively engaging humans when you are collecting their data or having them participate in this data collection process.
AMY
If a company wanted to begin bringing in social responsibility data, so they could trace it in their traceability program, are there standards for data around workers and labor conditions?
JEN
Yeah, so, I think so I’m going to start with the first question, which is, really where should a company begin if they want to bring in social responsibility data to their traceability program. And I would say starting with more of a risk-based approach is probably the easiest way to start and make some gains at the beginning because like I said, probably much of the data that the company is collecting related to illegal fishing might also help them understand risks related to human rights abuses or social responsibility, like I said. And then, when it comes to standards for data related to workers and labor conditions, I think there are actually quite a lot of good resources out there. But there isn’t necessarily international alignment on specific key data elements that need to be collected on vessels related to working conditions. But some of the resource that exist out there are, you know, FishWise has a tool, RISE, the Roadmap for Improving Seafood Ethics, it’s riseseafood.org. And then the organization Veritas responsible sourcing tool also has a really great page related to what data should be collected that’s specific to fisheries.
AMY
I feel like I hear a lot of organizations trying to create guidelines or standards, in what data to collect. So it’s FAO and Marine Stewardship Council and the Global Dialogue, Conservation Alliance, GSSI. But are they all working together to come up with something? Or is this a really noisy space that maybe needs some connecting?
JEN
Yeah. And so I’m going to do a little bit of a reframe. You listed off all of these many organizations that are starting to work on social responsibility and social responsibility guidelines and standards. I actually think that’s a really positive thing, because that means that the sector is being responsive to engaging with these evolving needs that the industry is saying. So as of 5 or 10 years ago one of the ones at the forefront of everyone’s mind was social responsibility. So it’s great that all of these groups are taking the initiative to work on social responsibility. Those groups that you mentioned, that tend to be more seafood focused or you know, fisheries focused, there are also a lot of human rights experts that have brought themselves into the seafood space. They’ve recognized the challenges that the seafood industry has had in the past. And they’ve said here, let us help you and let us improve conditions for workers in your industry based on lessons that we’ve taken from apparel, palm oil, electronics, and others. So I think there’s a lot of great momentum happening in the seafood sector.
To kind of go back to the original framing around noisy space. You know, this isn’t something that’s new to social responsibility and seafood. You know FishWise participates really closely in groups like the Conservation Alliance for Seafood Solutions and the NGO tuna forum. And both of those groups actually got created because there were so many different requests made to companies based on environmental sustainability. The companies really couldn’t sort it out on their own. They’re saying, Okay, this NGO told me this, this NGO told me this, but like, five tweaks to it, and then this other NGO, you know, said something that was a little bit different from that. And it gets really confusing when there are too many of us. And I think we can take a lot of lessons from what’s happened in the environmental sustainability space for seafood. So I do think that there probably needs to be a lot more connecting with social responsibility and seafood, just so that we can kind of align and share our goals in order to make it easier for companies and other stakeholders to move forward and actually improve conditions for workers.
AMY
Well, so if we do need alignment on social responsibility, you know, data standards, who’s charging on that idea?
JEN
Specific to data and social responsibility I think we’re starting to see it happen. And in order to effectively bring those groups together, you need some sort of more neutral convener that can work with a diversity of voices and audiences. Just to recognize the work that SALT has done in the past, I’ve been really impressed by your ability to work with these different groups all across the world on a very complex topic of traceability. And so I would say something like that is probably needed for social responsibility in a group like SALT or FishWise’s platform, RISE. These are groups that I see being able to play that connecting role in a way that can be really impactful. Because, you know, we are familiar with a huge diversity of voices and stakeholders and you know how to manage the opinions and needs of these different groups is of the utmost importance in order for that kind of alignment to be effective.
AMY
Jen, Fantastic. I think we have a lot of work ahead of us.
JEN
Yes, we do.
AMY
It’s a good stopping point for more bite-sized conversations around this topic. I really appreciate you joining me from the comfort of your home office. And I look forward to more social responsibility conversations and less social distancing.
This podcast is made possible by the generous support of the Walton Family Foundation, Packard Foundation, and Gordon and Betty Moore Foundation, as well as the American people through (USAID) the United States Agency for International Development. The content is the responsibility of SALT and does not necessarily reflect the views of USAID or the United States government.